A Thread to Discuss Old Matches We Watch on YouTube!

[Grarliner]

Leelee got me interested in old matches. I decided to watch the Conchita-Steffi RG SF match too. I didn't watch it at the time.

You're right that she didn't believe against her, but don't you think she deserves some credit for turning around the second set? Conchita was awfully lucky not to go down in straight sets. That match could easily have been 3 and 1 (like most of their matches).

However, there's another way to look at it. The match was a big chance for Conchita - all of a sudden, Steffi wasn't playing very well and for once, Graf melted down and lost a set she should have won!

One thing I noticed ... how many return errors for Conchita on big points? To start the third set, 30-30 and 40-30 she missed routine service returns for no reason. Major momentum break. 2-2 15-30, Steffi serving, second serve, Conchita goes for the big forehand ... and missed it by a mile. She followed that up with a pathetic flail at a decent (but not unreturnable) Graf slice serve out wide. Steffi won the game.

And then there's Conchita's demeanor. Conchita's attitude SUCKED in the third, as you mentioned. Every stupid error she's hanging her head and trudging around on the baseline like a slug. It was a big reminder of why she was so hard to like.

The match was lost at 3-3 0-40, Steffi serving. Conchita failed to make ALL THE BREAK POINT RETURNS. I mean, it's not like Steffi hit impossible serves either. Especially the last two ... it was just pathetic.

So of course she then gets broken from 30-15 up, and then in the last game, nets a horrible forehand second serve return at 15-30. Interestingly, Steffi went to the towel right after that point, I think to allow Conchita some more time to think about what just happened. Conchita had 2 bp's anyway. You know how that ended.

Anyway, can't help but think that Monica circa 1993 would have clobbered Steffi in a match like that. Graf's forehand was pretty hit-and-miss.

I'll give this to Hoof: she had incredible feel. Her best points involved taking a series of crosscourt shots from Steffi and returning them down the line off both wings. Hard to do that consistently, but she was able.

However, her serve was atrocious. It's obvious why Monica and the Williams sisters killed her. But the thing is this should not have been a big problem against Steffi. Steffi was never going to hit a backhand winner off the serve. She should have done better than 1-19 or whatever it was against Graf.

[Grarliner]

Another match I watched recently was the 1987 French Open final, Steffi's first Slam.

Actually, that's not really true. I watched only from 4-3, Martina serving, in the final set. There I witnessed the most unreal choking ever. So let's not be too hard on the modern girls; WTA and choking go together like a horse and carriage and love and marriage.

Martina, the #1 and winner of 15 Slams, somehow managed to lose to Steffi, a Grand Slam final debutante. She led *4-3, got broken. She broke back, served for the match. Was atrocious. Got broken. Steffi held. Martina somehow staved off elimination with a service hold to tie it at 6. Then ... the game that killed her. She reached bp. Got to the net. High backhand volley. Winner every day of the week. 99/100 she makes. Error. Steffi held and broke, claimed her maiden Slam title.

So who was the seasoned champion and who was the fucking rookie in this match? Martina's choking was disgraceful given her experience advantage.

On the other hand, Steffi's mental toughness was very special. As we know, she wasn't always better on the court, but she was usually better in the head and that accounted for a lot of wins over the years.

Martina did bounce back to beat Steffi for the Wimbledon and USO titles in '87. However, I feel that if she had shut the door at the French, it would have been much harder mentally for Steffi to turn around the h2h for good in 1988. Thoughts?

[The Chloe]

Good thread, Fatty. I have nothing to contribute at the moment, but wanted to acknowledge it's greatness.

[Old Hag]

Conchi did win the 2nd, but even then she was doing the hangdog nonsense. It was frustrating because she was more than competitive and could have won that match. Conchi had so much talent and even through 2005, I don't think she believed in herself.

That was part of me watching a ton of Stefanie matches from before 95 that I didn't watch or understand at the time.

Stefanie through most of 87 was still figuring out her game. She played much more passively, hit over her BH usually resulting in moonballs, she looked like a junior most of the time. But, she reached the top because she's an elite athlete. It wasn't until 88 that she grew up, both on and off court. If I recall a Stefanie interview about the 87 USO correctly, she learned from that tournament that she had to take the initiative vs. the many attacking players she faced (and she had a root canal done before the event which was noted 123242 times by announcers). She realized what a weapon her FH was, that she play at or within the baseline and destroy people (except Gaby at the time, and eventually Arantxa and Monica, who could push her back).

Steffi's dominance by 88 was inevitable, Martina noted that at the time.

And then Monica came and pissed on her aggression. I think the 90 RG tiebreak debacle was a mental block. Steffi no longer had control in the important moments. My fangirlism will probably show here, but Steffi was the better player, at least until later in 92 when she started having various issues.

Stefanie's game definitely went down post-stabbing, but the tour was soooooooo bad then so she dominated. Seriously, Sukova making the 93 USO final was disgusting. As much I dog SEWTA post-Henin, post-stabbing through 97 was up there in shittiness. She was like 100-2 in 1995, but she was a worse player then. Gaby became a joke by the mid-90s. There was nothing but Arantxa turbo grinding her way to the top, and occasionally Mahree's wild bashing connecting.

I rambled here, but I love Stefanie. She was so cute and awkward in the 80s <3.

I'll avoid talking about my Sampras run for now.

[R. Black]

I have to admit that once or twice a year, I search Martinez vs Coetzer on youtube. Still not uploaded.

[Traveling Man]

Jun 30, 2013 20:51:37 GMT -5 Old Hag said:

Stefanie's game definitely went down post-stabbing, but the tour was soooooooo bad then so she dominated. Seriously, Sukova making the 93 USO final was disgusting. As much I dog SEWTA post-Henin, post-stabbing through 97 was up there in shittiness. She was like 100-2 in 1995, but she was a worse player then. Gaby became a joke by the mid-90s. There was nothing but Arantxa turbo grinding her way to the top, and occasionally Mahree's wild bashing connecting.

I'm surprised you say that since most of Steffi's fans on TF (LDVTennis, etc) all state that Steffi's peak was '95 and '96 since she was the most complete she had ever been and was the BEST VERSION of Steffi. I'm assuming you consider Steffi's peak to be '88 and '89?

[R. Black]

It's hard to judge if her game was truly worse or if it's was her back injury bothering her.

To me the Graf in the 90s' seems more solid, but it's hard to compare over the years when the game and the opposition is changing.

[R. Black]

Oh, and of course the crazier Graf fans will argue that Graf peaked in the years after Seles was stabbed. They obviously want to counter the claim that Seles would have won 234983294823948 more Slam if not for the stabbing.

[R. Black]

I would be curious to see more videos of Marianne Werdel. Each time I've seen her, I've been impressed. Why didn't she achieve more? Nerve, injuries, too inconsistant? She played against Monica in Montreal in 92, and in the middle of the second set, you couldn't tell out of the two who was number 1.

[Grarliner]

I watched the 1987 and 1988 Wimbledon finals ... they were interesting and quite well-played. Martina was able to win the first one on her lefty serve out wide, which presented Steffi with big problems. Steffi had a choice between trying to drive/slice the ball down the line, slicing low and short at Martina's feet, or ripping the topspin bh, which was never the shot she liked much. She made too many errors out of respect for Martina's volleying and that decided things. Still, her mental toughness was in firm evidence. She saved 4-5 0-40 on her serve in the first set and then 3 more sps at 5-6. She played some amazing shots to do it, too. Martina finally finished things with a running backhand pass down the line, a great shot of her own. I think Martina never lost serve the entire time. In fact, I don't know that she even faced a bp.

1988 was a very well-played match but a strange one. Martina got down the early break and Steffi had a great chance to go up 5-2, two breaks and really seal the set. But she didn't. Interesting moment: Steffi missed a lob at 5-3, the crowd reacts with disappointment and Martina says, "What? Am I German out here?" Bud picked up on what that must have meant. The Nazis were Germans, they fought the British, Steffi is German and a Nazi? British people should cheer for Martina? Really weird, bitchy remark.

Anyway, here's the best thing about this match. Martina gets on a roll, steals that set 7-5. She then holds and breaks to open the second. So 7-5 2-0 and ... you're thinking 7th straight title. Steffi is then just all like, "Is that your best, Martina? Is that all?" It didn't rattle her at all and she proceeds to play ridiculously well for the remainder of the match. Steffi was cracking everything for winners, it was unreal. 12/13 games to Steffi, Martina had to hit epic shots to win even the one game she did. Match was somewhat similar to the Fed-Andre US Open final where it was close, seemed like Andre could win, and then Fed flipped the switch and it turned into a destruction.

[Old Hag]

Traveling Man said:

I'm surprised you say that since most of Steffi's fans on TF (LDVTennis, etc) all state that Steffi's peak was '95 and '96 since she was the most complete she had ever been and was the BEST VERSION of Steffi. I'm assuming you consider Steffi's peak to be '88 and '89?

I think Steffi's physical prime was 88-91ish. She was a far superior athlete than anyone in that era. But, she was a more complete player by 95 that knew her game, and SEWTA was officially terrified and choke sucked against her then. I maintain that her record in 95 was mostly due to the weakness of the tour.

I'd take Steffi age 18-20. Let her run around forever and smash FHs.

[Old Hag]

Also, I've tried to watch the 89 Wimbly final and it is so annoying when they go LIVE VIA SATELLITE to Chrissie's house to get her banal opinions of the match every changeover. These old matches are REALLY turning my opinion of Evert. I would have despised her if I was old like Janie.

[Grarliner]

Why don't you despise her now?

[Old Hag]

I'm getting there.

Also, I regret trying to watch Steffi vs. Petra Huber. Oh, dear. Petra's entire gameplan is using the most exaggerated topspin possible and trying to moonball over the fence. It is intolerable. And she's pretty. That must be what watching under 13's is like.

[Traveling Man]

Jul 3, 2013 21:45:35 GMT -5 Old Hag said:

Traveling Man said:

I'm surprised you say that since most of Steffi's fans on TF (LDVTennis, etc) all state that Steffi's peak was '95 and '96 since she was the most complete she had ever been and was the BEST VERSION of Steffi. I'm assuming you consider Steffi's peak to be '88 and '89?

I think Steffi's physical prime was 88-91ish. She was a far superior athlete than anyone in that era. But, she was a more complete player by 95 that knew her game, and SEWTA was officially terrified and choke sucked against her then. I maintain that her record in 95 was mostly due to the weakness of the tour.

I'd take Steffi age 18-20. Let her run around forever and smash FHs.

The Tour got lucky that she didn't play the Australian Open in '95 or '96. She would've won another Grand Slam, quite possibly even both years.

[Grarliner]

I consider Steffi's 93-94 Slam the same as a calendar year one. I also consider it BS since there's no way she could have done that against Seles.

[Traveling Man]

Jul 4, 2013 2:23:15 GMT -5 Grarliner said:

I consider Steffi's 93-94 Slam the same as a calendar year one. I also consider it BS since there's no way she could have done that against Seles.

If you're talking about about '96, Steffi wouldn't have seriously been challenged by Monica if they played at the AO (and I say this as a fan; Seles was sub-par that tournament with the shoulder issues kicking in & Steffi was no longer intimidated by her in the big moments as she had been at AO '93). If you're talking about the 93-94 run, yes it's likely she wouldn't have won al 4 with Seles present.

[Grarliner]

Where is there any indication I'm talking about '96?

I will say this, though. Steffi's game was probably on the upswing a bit by the time of Monica's stabbing. The two years from her French Open final loss to Monica in 1990 and her loss to her in 1992 were horrid by her standards. She only won one Slam in those two years, and she needed Gaby to choke it to her for that to happen. After that, her 1992-1993 was pretty good. Close, close loss to Monica in the French final, win over her for the Wimbledon title, pre-Monica loss at the USO, yes, but another RUP to her in three sets at the AO. She was getting closer. The stabbing robbed us of the chance to see how it was going to play out in 1993. As I said, I don't think Steffi would have completed a non-calendar year Slam with Monica in the field, but I also am not totally sure Monica would have kept up her 3/4 Slams per year pace.